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Post by G'eldriia on Jul 7, 2006 13:05:20 GMT -5
not sure if this goes in here so feel free to move it if you like. I remember a conversation last night with Kirisa satin that she and Olorae got together to discus what it is the the cultists beleive and shat the normal followers of Shillen beleive and I though it would be good if you guys gould post some kind of write up on it. It would be good to know RP wise so we now what it is exactly we are looking for...thanks just wanted to get this out there
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Post by Kirisa on Jul 7, 2006 13:31:21 GMT -5
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Post by Kirisa on Jul 7, 2006 13:42:04 GMT -5
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Damiel
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Post by Damiel on Jul 7, 2006 14:58:38 GMT -5
There are few problems religion and politics wise. First one is of course, that Dark elves do not want the old elmoraden empire back, they rather loathe it and are after something different. Also, as in shown in some npc dialogue as well I believe, Followers of shilen believe that Shilen is the perfect goddess of destruction. They also want to calm her perfect fury, and there is only one way to calm real hatered like that The idea of being "good" while still following shilen is an nice reach for popularity and ease of mind, but sadly does not have much real substance behind it. There are more streamlined and more extreme factions in shilen church, but none of them are "good" in any way. None of them are seeking real coexistence with other gods and their followers either in the end, altough some might seek one temporarily for their own factions gain.
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Post by Just Another Sinner on Jul 7, 2006 23:43:34 GMT -5
Bravo, Damiel.
I couldn't have said it better myself.
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Kaelir
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Post by Kaelir on Jul 11, 2006 16:09:51 GMT -5
I believe that the Shillen Temple is after their own interests, and if you look in the lore the dark elves are generally intolerant, cruel, prejudiced, and isolated. Eventide Sentries was the first example I had seen of a "good" Shillen faction, and even though my character follows Shillen, I don't consider her a good goddess. Not for an instant.
For one, it's a videogame. The gods are fairly one-dimensional. Shillen is the goddess of death and rage. She was the mother of dragons. I don't expect following her will exactly lead my character on a merry path through the wildflowers.
Even if it is evil, it is what the dark elves were born into. I am sure you have heard this before, but from a dark elves perspective - no, Shillen is not evil - she is the mother of a society - and good can be born from the most terrible of circumstances.
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Post by Just Another Sinner on Jul 11, 2006 19:05:18 GMT -5
This is why I've had so many variations posted of the same thing. Evil is relative to the society it is viewed in.
Olo would never consider herself evil. Doesn't stop everyone else from considering her evil, though.
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Post by Kirisa on Jul 11, 2006 19:34:34 GMT -5
"Good" and "evil" are relitive things...to most peoples of Aden, the Dark Elves are evil. But the dark elves woudl tell you those people simply fear and hate without knowing, becausethey worship the goddess who controls death and study the dark arts. They other races may fear that, but they do not. They realize death is a gift to the world, as the Tetrach says, Shilen's gift of limited life allows the cycle of life to contiue ever onward. AS all life is birthed from nothingness, so must it return. hate adn fear their religion, but it is what they live by, and their Goddess, as they see it, has always guided and protected them, her children. Why would they not love and revere her?
They do not worship Death, their religion if of the endless cycle of birth, life and death. That is simply what the other races see: one side of the coin. An evil death cult. Following and evil goddess (She lords over Death, after all!), and their actions against the light elves and Humans has been less than friendly. They must be evil.
Or are they just persecuted, feared, hated, reacting in kind.
There are definatley differnet ideologies on worshipping Shilen. The tetrarch describes it as being a reverance for the cycle of life and death that her gift of limited life provides the world. When they speak of her, they speak of her as a loved, glorious mother. They call her holy, your even supposed to purify your mind upon entering the sanctum. Then thre are player embelishments, like Undead and certain forms of necromancy being an affront to Shilen, a violation of the Sanctity of death, and Death as an act of compassion to end a dying person's suffering.
and Looking at the lore, it's not entirely clear how much they know of the true nature of Shilen, or if they'd follow her in that state. Grand Master Oltrin in Aden seems agast that she's become a hate-filled creature of destruction, says we need to calm her fury and send syouto destroy the dmeons born of it.
Magister Xenovia thinks preachers of Shilen's return are crazy madman, and worries about hidden factions int he Temple backing them.
The prelude story says some of the dark elves *did* know SHilen's true nature, they recieved the revelation, but spoke of it only in Whispers, and when the Darkness came, *all* the races banded together against it.
The ancient cult of Elmoraden of course had different views. They purely worshipped the Death Shilen brings, and sought to return a kingdom of death tot he world where Shilen would reign. No doubt there are those who still hold these views, or variations there-of. At least,, view's removed enough from Temple doctrine to be called blasphemous.
I never formed Sentries with intention of being "Good", but with a plotline enough to ally with a clan of friends. I had to look deep intot he lore, and create a conspiracy or two (which finally saw a bit of light with a recent RP <winks at Olo>) to make it work.
Now witht he Guard, it's something a little different. Completely further goals of the Temple, defending it form enemies, within and without, furthering political goals, (the alliance with Legion is for political matters, as they're trying to reform Elmoraden. We dark Elves need to make sure that works in our favors, and...IC I've stated a few time sint he past, we don't wear legion crests IC. There's still some dark intentions at work int he background, but I think it creates a different dymanic than the Rawr! Evil! way of playing Dark Elves.
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Damiel
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Post by Damiel on Aug 16, 2006 8:27:22 GMT -5
Then you are playing dark elves like everyone is playing their characters. There is no real good or evil, so there are no people who are either good or evil. However, from what I have talked with some of your clan members, and seen from some of the posts. This clan is mostly the great excuse for playing a darkelf and to be "good" at the same time.
I think, however that most people who roleplay do realize the lack of good and evil in this world. There are some instances of trash who dont, and insist everything to be black and white, but their opinions are not any issue to anyone anymore, so roleplaying community as a whole could start being more mature about the whole good and evil issue.
Good and evil are not constant, fixed things, and everyone can be and is both good and evil to different people at the same time. This is only real thruth there is.
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Post by Esmera on Aug 16, 2006 8:32:38 GMT -5
Then you are playing dark elves like everyone is playing their characters. There is no real good or evil, so there are no people who are either good or evil. However, from what I have talked with some of your clan members, and seen from some of the posts. This clan is mostly the great excuse for playing a darkelf and to be "good" at the same time. I think, however that most people who roleplay do realize the lack of good and evil in this world. There are some instances of trash who dont, and insist everything to be black and white, but their opinions are not any issue to anyone anymore, so roleplaying community as a whole could start being more mature about the whole good and evil issue. Good and evil are not constant, fixed things, and everyone can be and is both good and evil to different people at the same time. This is only real thruth there is. So you are saying, since I'm a DE, I should start sacrificing people and stuff like your clan is doing? Thanks but no thanks.
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Damiel
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Post by Damiel on Aug 16, 2006 8:46:39 GMT -5
If you are a person raised to your faith, working to your church and the sect of it, you do not see anything weird in what it is doing. You can always imagine yourself to be from a sect that has never done these things and it will work. You can always imagine yourself to be something so you do not need to, that is what roleplaying is all about. And when there is some event you do not like, you can always imagine that you are somewhere else in some mission for who knows what.
If you mold your characters views and beliefs to what you yourself think about things as a player, you could just as well stop pretending to be really roleplaying a religious dark elf though. You should have picked race and faith that is closer to your own beliefs (altough there are none that fit to our modern view of good in l2, not even humans or light elves). That is much more preferrable way to it than trying to distort Church of shilen to something that is not.
Sometimes I could swear that people start playing dark elves mainly for the looks, not caring too much about what their world and their general beliefs are, then imagining a nice excuse to mold them to what one as a player feels most "convinient" with.
It would be fine if we had tons of dark elven npc:s and we as players could be the rare dark elves who stray from the path. Dark elven population is made of human players here though, so people should play their race as it is meant to with only one or two exceptions seeing how small the roleplaying population in this server is.
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Post by Esmera on Aug 16, 2006 8:51:31 GMT -5
If you mold your characters views and beliefs to what you yourself think about things as a player, you could just as well stop pretending to be really roleplaying a religious dark elf though. You should have picked race and faith that is closer to your own beliefs (altough there are none that fit to our modern view of good in l2, not even humans or light elves). That is much more preferrable way to it than trying to distort Church of shilen to something that is not. Sometimes I could swear that people start playing dark elves mainly for the looks, not caring too much about what their world and their general beliefs are, then imagining a nice excuse to mold them to what one as a player feels most "convinient" with. I made Esmera months before I RPed for the first time, and yes it was mostly for looks. And as reasons for not being part of the DE race like other, Es was never raised by the Temple or near other Dark Elves. And yes, she is close to me, maybe some of you have been RPing for years, but this is my first try, and like I said earlier today in another Thread, I do not think that I'm good at it.
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Damiel
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Post by Damiel on Aug 16, 2006 9:03:31 GMT -5
It all varies so much between different characters. In Damiels case, the rare times I really do roleplay as him nowdays, he is with church of shilen and for the very fact that that is where all of his friends are. He is born and bred warrior, and used to battle and bloodshed. Also, he has seen the darker parts of the einhasad church, and has also worked as inquisitor for that. He knows well enough that it is no more "good" than church of shilen is in the end. There are many kinds of duty and honor. What damiel follows is duty and honor towards his friends, not towards any church or association. For them there is nothing that he would not do, and that is how things will remain. His own views are molded much by how he has lived, and he cannot definitely be seen "good" in any sense, altough not really "evil" either I think. I have posted one short story about him to l2rpa that describes how he is somewhat. In that way Damiel is much like esmera is to you as well though. My friends, not just damiels, are in the hand, and there are not many things I would not do for them ooc. Irl > game, so there really is nothing at all that I would not do for them in game. I think, that there is no character who by at least some trait would not be similar to the player in some way, so you should not be worried about that
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Makora
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Post by Makora on Aug 16, 2006 9:09:53 GMT -5
I'd have to agree with Dam. What they do is quite similar. Mak would die protecting his friends and loved one.
And another note, Mak is neither good or evil I guess. He's very caring at times and other times he can be an asshole. Sometimes his temper can get the best of him and he'll start to break shit. Thats fun to do though.
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Post by Kirisa on Aug 16, 2006 12:46:40 GMT -5
Then you are playing dark elves like everyone is playing their characters. There is no real good or evil, so there are no people who are either good or evil. However, from what I have talked with some of your clan members, and seen from some of the posts. This clan is mostly the great excuse for playing a darkelf and to be "good" at the same time. I would not say we're an excuse to be Dark Elf and good. I've set a clan that follows the lore suggesting the Shillien Temple is not an evil, sacrificing death cult religion. (there's only one mention of Sacrifice, int he lvl 3 Shilen's Hunt quest, and the NPC makes a point of stating that offering the hunted animals as sacrifce at the mass of darkness is purely symbolic - this was once a real hunt for survival) Since there's dialogue about Renegade factions in the temple, people who worship Shilen in that way would definately be lurking amongst it's ranks. That's where we come in <grins> Are we good or evil? We're an investigative unit, something of an internal police force, dealing with all threats to the Temple and it's people. We further dark elven goals, and hunt down enemies, traitors, cultists and other threats to the Temple, even if they come from within. We're good, because we don't follow cultist beleifs, we hunt them down and stop them. (in this way, we could also be "evil", as we're something of the Temple's Inquisition, putting an end to practices and beliefs that differ from the Temple's doctrines. If you think the Temple has lost it's way, and beleive you're doing your loving duty to Shilen by sacrificing that light elf maiden, and we come in and bust you, calling you an evil murdering cultist who defies the Temple and defiles the name of Shilen with your actions, would you call us good?) To some eyes, we could be evil simply because of our associations. Not all look upon the dakr elves and the Shillien Temple kindly. I say, we're simply us.
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